"But I don't want to work in a mill" Note: Emails are organized in the order received, with first received at the top. Some Paper Science and Engineering Programs (including the University of Washington -- "Go Dawgs") agree with you and require students to complete at least one summer work experience in the industry. Either mill or supplier jobs are acceptable, but if mill jobs are available, they go quickly. These aren't jobs at the end of a wash-down hose, but participation in project work......with a report required. I joined Weyerhaeuser in their research area, but the lab was at the Everett Sulfite Mill site. Relief shift superintendent positions were filled for 6 to 12 month periods with entering research employees. The three long-term (started up the mill 30+years before) superintendents and the mill workers taught me lessons that were invaluable the rest of my R&D career. I also had a research manager that had spent most of his career in almost every area of a fiber line. He told me not to stay too long in R&D before getting a job in a mill. Those were the "good old days" in R&D. Although I didn't take the path he suggested, his advice prompted me to provide technical support to mills whenever they needed it and to talk to the operating floor staff at the beginning of the problem-solving process.. Suppliers have taken on much of the technical and engineering work that mills used to do. But the engineers suppliers hire are of little use to them without foundation of mill experience. Bill Fuller Federal Way, Washington USA *** Jim, What you are addressing is not just in the paper industry, but throughout all the engineering colleges and all the different curriculums. I have had several discussions with Dr. Clough (now the ex-president of Georgia Tech) about my concerns that the engineering being taught seems to be slanted toward making the students into grad students. When I attended Tech, most of my professors had worked in industry for a reasonable portion of their career before becoming a teacher. Now it appears that they are career professors without the varied industry experience. The goal of my professors was to turn out engineers that could go out and work. Reading much of the information from the NSPE (National Society of Professional Engineering) also supports the realization that we are not producing engineers at the rate that is needed by industry. It is tough to totally fault the colleges as they are graded by the research that they do and the intellectual ranking of their students. The professors are pushed to do research and they need highly intelligent grad students to perform this work. Sometimes I wonder if a better source would be industry engineers that would bring in experience and the drive to find solutions to everyday practical problems. At this time the price of an engineering education has soared. It seems that only the very talented that obtain scholarships and the needy who get grants can obtain the education without putting the family into a financial hole. This realization forces a number of good engineering candidates to elect to go into other fields. I do not know the solution, but the situation is now getting bad enough that something must be changed. Any thoughts on how? Mike Higgins St. Petersburg, Florida USA --- I really think these professionals are going to come into the mills via a different path. I know of mills that only hire people for any position with at least a start at a technical college education and expect them (teeth: termination if they don't) to continue their education for which the mill pays. These are not our traditional college graduates. Jim *** Jim, Winter quarter 1973 (the quarter system was great for co-ops) was a good time to be a Senior in EE at Auburn, especially with 18 months experience as a co-op student doing relevant work. Fifty fortune 500 companies, almost all US owned back then, came to campus to interview EEs. I interviewed several, was offered several plant or mill (depending on the industry) or office visits and ended up with several acceptable offers. I could go on for hours but I ended up working for U.S. Steel in a major fully integrated steel mill. They did things right back then. All of their 13 process control supervisors were mechanical engineers, a position normally requiring 10 years experience, and they were installing their 1st computer, plc, and all electronic I&C controlled new steel making process. It was the most complicated thing I've seen to date. So, being an EE I immediately got to work on the project and in 6 months had attended 17 schools for everything. Some were 1/2 day and some were 2 weeks. When not attending school or going to project meetings, I got to use my new talents modernizing older parts of the mill. A year later I helped commission the new process and then worked another year with 24/7/365 I&C maintenance. I then got promoted and transferred to a brand new mill and the rest is history. Ten years later I began working as a consultant in pulp and paper and those earlier years in plant and mill maintenance and engineering served me well, and my employers. In the mill you can get a "taste of everything". Larry Wells Atlanta, Georgia USA *** Jim My sympathy is with the students, the paper industry has been a poor employer in general over the last 10 years, and most graduates are no longer purpose trained, so if you have a chemistry degree the paper industry was not on your list probably. Secondly (and I have done the research in my own large company -- 20 mills globally), I have yet to find anyone who has advocated that their children go into paper -- because of the way the industry treats it's people and the prospects they see for the industry. That is our problem Robert Turnbull Braamfontein South Africa *** Without even realizing it your article showed why many don't want to work in the mill. The old mill attitudes still pervade, or you wouldn't have addressed some of your comments specifically to women and minorities. I have worked in the industry for 15 years including time as a shift supervisor in a mill, and the prejudices are still around and tolerated. Additionally, it's not just women and minorities but the white male engineers out of college who are refusing to work in the mill, because of the swing shift schedules which still exist in many facilities. The real reasons people don't want to work in the mills has nothing to do with the dirt, noise or the temperature. It is about the compensation, hours and respect. Thanks, Female worker in the mill Ohio USA --- Some of your points are correct, but others may be a matter of perspective. The first place I worked, the production superintendent got in trouble for kicking a worker who was on his hands and knees welding. The union went crazy. His punishment? They promoted him to chief engineer over us in the engineering department. Recently, I was made aware of a case in a mill where a worker spit on another worker's shoes. Punishment? The person was terminated. The mill has a zero tolerance policy for aggressive behavior. When I was young, you had to show bruises (and a broken bone or two would help) to get an aggressive person fired. As far as hours and shift work is concerned, I tell young people mill work is a lifestyle. It is a 24/7 operation and if you are going to be successful, you will work that into your life--if you try to fight it you will have a very unhappy career. I recognize I still have prejudices and I work on them all the time. Personally, when I worked at Procter & Gamble (I left in 1978), I received and believed a great deal of minority/women prejudice awareness and prevention training. I received six full weeks of minority training alone in the period March 1974 to July 1977. It has stuck with me all my life. For instance, I have spent endless time in mills putting in place and enforcing "no pornography" policies. Before this happened, mechanics' toolboxes would open with the most vile material you can imagine pasted inside the lids. My perspective is perhaps additionally helped by a wife who is a chemical engineer (and past national board member of the Society of Women Engineers) and a daughter who has a Ph.D. in chemical engineering. By the way, these women, both graduates of Georgia Tech, tell me the women there have a saying pertaining to finding a male companion at that school: "The odds are good but the goods are odd." (Note to son-in-law Travis: Elaine, my daughter and your wife, has never said this about you despite meeting you under these circumstances.) I still have a lot to learn, but don't think I am lost in the woods as deeply as you seem to think. Jim *** Halo Jim. Long time without contacting This is your Mexican Fan , which is "Consultant , Bullfighter and Paper Maker", listing the trades in order of risk. I been busy sorting the storms, Economical, influence AN1H1, (Think about contagious in wastepaper), and financial dryness. If you where Baseball Player I Would say you hit the Ball in the Nose, with this article. Congratulations. You can not induce people into Bull Fighting, in spite of the beautiful girls they all marry and the very high pay, much less into Paper Making or Mill operation. However every year new "Novilleros" (not certified Bullfighters) arrive to the rings and new trainees get into the Mills. This is not a job of universities and schools is the Job of your people in charge of hiring. Please review your history about the creation of the Chemical Engineers, in the MIT about the 1920. And You will remember and clarify the issues. Let me Tell you I was invited few month ago after 50 years of graduation to give the inaugural speech, for the Chemical Engineering studies of 2009 in the National Polytechnic Institute, and reminded the students of this. If you like to use your hands, fix your car, operate your computer efficiently, and enjoy improving the performance of machines you can be an engineer. But If you like to make chemical reactions on the machinery, and plants like in an oil refinery and a paper mill you are a Chemical Engineer, you will have one of the better paychecks in the industry a good car and beautiful girlfriends. But if you don like that and like to be in the Lab ... Sorry ...you are a chemist...You are in the wrong School. Jim after all this 50 years of squishing fibers in may hands to check drainage, Deeping my arm into white water to test the charge with my arms hair, and liking whitewater to check pH and conductivity, the Industry is passing from an "ARTISAN TRADE" to a "NANOTECHNOLOGY ENGINNERING" and it is fascinating to measure colloidal charge, Z Potential , conductivity, dynamic drainage and control the variables with a Computer and a mouse TO MAKE MORE MONEY AND BE SAFER. Best Regards, and make money with safety. VALE. As Don Quixote used to say. Dr Eng Francisco Javier Ortiz y Flores. Mexico City, Mexico ### Have a comment? Send your email to jthompson@taii.com. Unless you tell us otherwise, we will assume we can use your name if we publish your letter.